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1st Thread in C&R - A "Real" Springfield 1911

beetle

New member
What? No posts on my favorite topic (C&R)? We must remedy that!

Note - this isn't new content, it's something I wrote up and posted before on Calguns and Reddit. I hope you find it interesting.

When the topic of what 1911 to buy here in California, one that is frequently mentioned is the Springfield Loaded. But the reality is that the Springfield 1911 of today has very little to do with the Springfield 1911 when it was a government arsenal. This is the history of a "real" Springfield 1911.

spring1911-2s.jpg

When Colt was awarded the contract for the manufacture of 1911s, the US Government negotiated the right to also manufacture the pistols at their government armory. The contract stipulated that the government could begin production after 50,000 pistols had been ordered from Colt. In addition, at no time could the government manufacture more than 33 1/3 percent of the total number of 1911s needed. Finally a $2 royalty would be paid to Colt to satisfy the claims of the inventor, John Moses Browning.


Armory-established-1777-weapons-Revolutionary-War-fact-site-selected-by-George-Washington-himself-Because-refitting-1911s-mag


Springfield Armory was established in 1777 to manufacture weapons for the Revolutionary War. In fact the site was selected by George Washington himself!

Since the army was refitting with 1911s, the magic number of 50,000 was quickly reached. Springfield started planning the manufacture of the pistols. Two plans were presented to management -- the first was to build out a complete and separate plant from the rifle factory, while the second was to have the pistols and rifles share common machinery. At the time the Army thought the total need was only 120,000 pistols. Due to the agreement with Colt, that meant only an additional 23,000 pistols were to be manufactured (33% of 120,000 minus the 50,000 already ordered to colt). The government felt that it was not worthwhile to build out a complete new plant and ordered Springfield to go with the cheaper solution of sharing resources between rifle and pistol.

One-item-will-come-up-over-is-complete-lack-start-relied-JMB-build-use-prototype-form-basis-detailed-were-ever-made-delayed-s


One item that comes up over and over again while discussing the manufacturing of 1911s is Colt's complete lack of detailed drawings. From the start Colt relied on JMB to build a prototype, and then used that prototype to form the basis of their tooling. No detailed drawings with measurements were ever made by Colt.

This delayed Springfield's ability to begin producing the pistol. To create the machinery needed, Springfield ordered 20 pistols from Colt, then took the averages of each part to establish the dimensions they would create the tooling from.

The pistol also received different markings than the Colt. This included the Springfield Armory name, the fact that Colt owned the patent, the government arsenal "flaming bomb" and the US Eagle. I am particularly impressed by the detail in the eagle stamping! Oh yes, to finish the story on the drawings issue, this became an issue again during WW2 when the government asked other companies to make M1911A1s. Guess what? no drawings!

One-more-sought-after-parts-of-original-is-Typically-were-made-seamless-tubing-which-purchased-abroad-eliminate-dependency-ex


One of the more unique and sought after parts of an original Springfield 1911 is the magazine. Typically magazines were made from seamless tubing which was purchased abroad. To eliminate this dependency, Springfield experimented with making magazines from sheet steel. The steel was formed into a tube with flanges folded over and welded over the magazine base. This style was unique to Springfield.

Today these "folded base" magazines are quite rare to find and worth quite a bit just on their own.

other-thing-unique-1911s-All-of-small-including-Hammer-Slide-Grip-Safety-Mainspring-Housing-Trigger-Magazine-Catch-Extractor-


The other thing unique to original Springfield 1911s are "S" marked parts. All of the small parts including Barrel, Hammer, Slide Stop, Safety, Grip Safety, Mainspring Housing, Trigger, Magazine Catch, Extractor, Firing Pin Stop, Sear, Disconnector, and Barrel Bushing are marked with an "S".


about-pistols-2-Woodrow-Wilson-requested-Congress-declare-war-Germany-seemed-inevitable-would-enter-conflict-accelerated-M190


In total Springfield made about 25,767 pistols. On April 2 1917 Woodrow Wilson requested that Congress declare war on Germany. As it seemed inevitable that the US would enter the conflict, Springfield Armory accelerated their production of the M1903 Springfield rifle. Because pistol manufacture shared resources with rifle manufacture, the decision was made to terminate production of the Springfield 1911. On April 15 1917 the last 1911 was produced by Springfield. Total production was 25,767.

The pistol I have is one of those 25,767. In addition is also an "NRA" gun. After WWI the government wanted to promote the skill of rifle and pistol shooting as the US Army was primarily volunteer based. Teddy Roosevelt helped established the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice. The "National Matches" became a popular sport. Only one problem -- 1911s were still in short supply to the general public. To help with this, the Government sold off surplus 1911s out of its stock to members of the NRA. To identify these guns they stamped "NRA" right below the serial number. This gun is one of approximately 100 that were sold through this program. Kind of reminds me of the current CMP program to sell off surplus 1911s.

In 1968 US Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara shutdown Springfield Armory. In 1974 the name was licensed to to a corporation now known as "Springfield Armory Inc". Besides the name there is no other association to the historic government arsenal.

Because this gun is over 50 years old, it CAN be bought and shipped into California. So the next time you are frustrated with the roster, look into C&R guns. Lots of interesting guns available that are a part of HISTORY!
 
Nice write up, thanks. I have kept my modern Springfield Mil-spec unfired. I will eventually gift it to my younger kid who wants a 1911.
 
Gorgeous gun. I only recently really appreciated the 1911 when I picked up some cheap GSG .22 1911 style pistol. Obviously it’s the least authentic 1911 you can buy, but the trigger is addictive.

I want to get a 1911 GI style 9mm. If such a thing exists.

My dad had an unfired Norinco 1911. I should have hung onto that.
 
As a huge 1911 fan that learned to shoot using my dad's Colt Combat Commander, that there is one gorgeous piece of art. Ill have to go get it out and take pictures of it and it's fellow Colt collectors items that I've acquired over the years...
 
What? No posts on my favorite topic (C&R)? We must remedy that!

Note - this isn't new content, it's something I wrote up and posted before on Calguns and Reddit. I hope you find it interesting.

When the topic of what 1911 to buy here in California, one that is frequently mentioned is the Springfield Loaded. But the reality is that the Springfield 1911 of today has very little to do with the Springfield 1911 when it was a government arsenal. This is the history of a "real" Springfield 1911.

View attachment 1370

When Colt was awarded the contract for the manufacture of 1911s, the US Government negotiated the right to also manufacture the pistols at their government armory. The contract stipulated that the government could begin production after 50,000 pistols had been ordered from Colt. In addition, at no time could the government manufacture more than 33 1/3 percent of the total number of 1911s needed. Finally a $2 royalty would be paid to Colt to satisfy the claims of the inventor, John Moses Browning.


Armory-established-1777-weapons-Revolutionary-War-fact-site-selected-by-George-Washington-himself-Because-refitting-1911s-mag


Springfield Armory was established in 1777 to manufacture weapons for the Revolutionary War. In fact the site was selected by George Washington himself!

Since the army was refitting with 1911s, the magic number of 50,000 was quickly reached. Springfield started planning the manufacture of the pistols. Two plans were presented to management -- the first was to build out a complete and separate plant from the rifle factory, while the second was to have the pistols and rifles share common machinery. At the time the Army thought the total need was only 120,000 pistols. Due to the agreement with Colt, that meant only an additional 23,000 pistols were to be manufactured (33% of 120,000 minus the 50,000 already ordered to colt). The government felt that it was not worthwhile to build out a complete new plant and ordered Springfield to go with the cheaper solution of sharing resources between rifle and pistol.

One-item-will-come-up-over-is-complete-lack-start-relied-JMB-build-use-prototype-form-basis-detailed-were-ever-made-delayed-s


One item that comes up over and over again while discussing the manufacturing of 1911s is Colt's complete lack of detailed drawings. From the start Colt relied on JMB to build a prototype, and then used that prototype to form the basis of their tooling. No detailed drawings with measurements were ever made by Colt.

This delayed Springfield's ability to begin producing the pistol. To create the machinery needed, Springfield ordered 20 pistols from Colt, then took the averages of each part to establish the dimensions they would create the tooling from.

The pistol also received different markings than the Colt. This included the Springfield Armory name, the fact that Colt owned the patent, the government arsenal "flaming bomb" and the US Eagle. I am particularly impressed by the detail in the eagle stamping! Oh yes, to finish the story on the drawings issue, this became an issue again during WW2 when the government asked other companies to make M1911A1s. Guess what? no drawings!

One-more-sought-after-parts-of-original-is-Typically-were-made-seamless-tubing-which-purchased-abroad-eliminate-dependency-ex


One of the more unique and sought after parts of an original Springfield 1911 is the magazine. Typically magazines were made from seamless tubing which was purchased abroad. To eliminate this dependency, Springfield experimented with making magazines from sheet steel. The steel was formed into a tube with flanges folded over and welded over the magazine base. This style was unique to Springfield.

Today these "folded base" magazines are quite rare to find and worth quite a bit just on their own.

other-thing-unique-1911s-All-of-small-including-Hammer-Slide-Grip-Safety-Mainspring-Housing-Trigger-Magazine-Catch-Extractor-


The other thing unique to original Springfield 1911s are "S" marked parts. All of the small parts including Barrel, Hammer, Slide Stop, Safety, Grip Safety, Mainspring Housing, Trigger, Magazine Catch, Extractor, Firing Pin Stop, Sear, Disconnector, and Barrel Bushing are marked with an "S".


about-pistols-2-Woodrow-Wilson-requested-Congress-declare-war-Germany-seemed-inevitable-would-enter-conflict-accelerated-M190


In total Springfield made about 25,767 pistols. On April 2 1917 Woodrow Wilson requested that Congress declare war on Germany. As it seemed inevitable that the US would enter the conflict, Springfield Armory accelerated their production of the M1903 Springfield rifle. Because pistol manufacture shared resources with rifle manufacture, the decision was made to terminate production of the Springfield 1911. On April 15 1917 the last 1911 was produced by Springfield. Total production was 25,767.

The pistol I have is one of those 25,767. In addition is also an "NRA" gun. After WWI the government wanted to promote the skill of rifle and pistol shooting as the US Army was primarily volunteer based. Teddy Roosevelt helped established the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice. The "National Matches" became a popular sport. Only one problem -- 1911s were still in short supply to the general public. To help with this, the Government sold off surplus 1911s out of its stock to members of the NRA. To identify these guns they stamped "NRA" right below the serial number. This gun is one of approximately 100 that were sold through this program. Kind of reminds me of the current CMP program to sell off surplus 1911s.

In 1968 US Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara shutdown Springfield Armory. In 1974 the name was licensed to to a corporation now known as "Springfield Armory Inc". Besides the name there is no other association to the historic government arsenal.

Because this gun is over 50 years old, it CAN be bought and shipped into California. So the next time you are frustrated with the roster, look into C&R guns. Lots of interesting guns available that are a part of HISTORY!

Great read. I’m slowly dipping my feet into the C&R world. I’ve always thought of the 1911 as ww2 but never ww1. Need to buff up on my historical arms history.
 

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